https://n2v.almanacnews.com/square/print/2014/10/20/texas-photo-id-ruling--prevents-voter-fraud


Town Square

Texas Photo ID Ruling Prevents Voter Fraud

Original post made by Ricardo Moresca, Menlo Park: Belle Haven, on Oct 20, 2014

Everyone should hail Saturday's Supreme Court decision upholding the Texas Voter ID law for the upcoming elections. The photo identification requirement will stop unscrupulous people from committing voter fraud.

Acting under the authority of the Motor Voter Law, the U.S. Justice Department does not allow voting registrars to delete from the rolls the names of those who have not voted or answered postcards until four years have elapsed.

As a result, millions of dead voters and tens of millions who have moved are still on the voter rolls, opening a massive opportunity for fraud. With so many dead or relocated voters still eligible to have ballots cast in their name, the opportunities multiply. And having 12 million undocumented people living in America, the chances to get people to vote illegally increase.

North Carolina recently found 35,000 people who voted there in the 2012 election and whose first and last names and birth dates matched voters in other states who voted in the same election. Voting officials have commissioned a special unit to investigate how this happened. But the likelihood is that a scam involving undeleted voter records is at fault. And, with no photo ID requirements, there was no way to stop it.

Hiding behind the argument that getting a photo ID will create insurmountable barriers to voting, the U.S. Justice Department has litigated against photo ID. But the U.S. Supreme Court overruled a Texas District Court’s verdict invalidating the ID law. The vote was 6-3 with Clinton appointee Justice Stephen Breyer joining John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas. and Samuel Alito on the Court.

Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott argued that with birth certificates available for $2 for election identification purposes, the barrier is hardly insurmountable.

By allowing the photo ID requirement in the elections coming up in two weeks, the ability to steal elections is facing its most significant challenge in the Lone Star State.

Comments

Posted by The watcher
a resident of Menlo Park: other
on Oct 20, 2014 at 9:26 pm

With all due respect - Ricardo, I do not believe ther is any documentable evidence of the "millions" pf dead voters committing fraud that you claim.

Instead I will point you to a Government Accountability Report that shows a drop in actual voter turnout in Kansas and Yennessee as a result of their voter ID laws. Web Link - the result is voter suppression pure and simple. It's the modern version of the "poll tax" enacted to keep African-Americans from voting in the south.

Texas' voter ID laws should be repudiated.


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 20, 2014 at 9:32 pm

pogo is a registered user.

Without commenting on this legal decision (which wasn't 6-3 by the way, it wasn't announced), I don't honestly know how someone can live in our society without ID.

You can't get a job without ID and if you don't have a job, you can't get government benefits without ID - not Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid. Of course, you can't cash a check without ID or get alcohol, cigarettes or prescription drugs.

So how do you survive without one? It's an honest question.


Posted by The watcher
a resident of Menlo Park: other
on Oct 20, 2014 at 10:24 pm

Pogo - there are 7 types of*photo* ID Texas accepts. Drivers license, concealed handgun registration, passport, Texa voter ID, US citizenship card, Texas ID card, military ID. If you don't have money for a cr or can't drive (like my 90 year old neighbor) chances are you won't have any of these identifications. Notice Texas doesn't accept student ID. Social security cards aren't photo IDs. This is why the Texas judge deemed the law unconstitutional.

I only have two of the photo IDs Texas would require - because I've done a lot of foreign travel for work my passport is up to date. How many do you have?


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 21, 2014 at 6:23 am

pogo is a registered user.

Thank you for your reply, Watcher, but you didn't answer my question. Again, how do you survive in today's society without an ID? It is an honest, serious question.

To answer your question, I have two of the IDs you noted - a driver's license and passport.

I think the reason that a college ID is not allowed is because going to a college does not establish you as a legal resident of that state or even as a citizen, for that matter. I went to an out of state school and had a college photo ID but always voted in my "home state." And we do know that non-citizens can attend colleges. Should these non-citizens be allowed to vote simply because they have a local college ID?

With regard to your 90 year old neighbor who cannot afford a car and doesn't drive, if that person is receiving Social Security or Medicare benefits, then they had to have a photo ID to apply for them. If they receive a check for those benefits or any other benefit (like a tax refund or pension), then they need a photo ID to cash it or needed a photo ID to open the bank account to receive the direct deposit. My mother, who is older than your neighbor, hasn't driven in years - but she still has a photo ID which was provided free of charge by the DMV in her home state.

As I said, the number of people without a photo ID must be vastly overstated because you cannot survive in our society without one.


Posted by Peter Carpenter
a resident of Atherton: Lindenwood
on Oct 21, 2014 at 6:59 am

Peter Carpenter is a registered user.

Here is some data:

Voting and ID Requirements: A Survey of Registered Voters in Three States
Robert A. Pastor
American University, Washington, DC, USA
Robert Santos
The Urban Institute, Washington, DC, USA
Alison Prevost
American University, Washington, DC, USA
Vassia Stoilov
American University, Washington, DC, USA, vg1630a@american.edu
Abstract

Since the 2000 election, one of the most contentious issues in election administration has been voter identification requirements. This article provides the results of a survey of registered voters in Indiana, Maryland, and Mississippi, which aimed to explore the extent to which ID requirements pose a problem (if any) to registered voters. The survey found that only 1.2% of registered voters in all three states lack a photo ID and in Indiana, which has the most stringent requirements, only 0.3% lacked an ID. The survey also found that more than two-thirds of respondents believe the U.S. electoral system would be trusted more if voters were required to show a photo ID. The article concludes with a proposal on how to construct an ID system that will assure ballot integrity while attracting new and more voters.

The American Review of Public Administration July 2010 vol. 40 no. 4 461-481


Posted by Peter Carpenter
a resident of Atherton: Lindenwood
on Oct 21, 2014 at 7:00 am

Peter Carpenter is a registered user.

And here is a good article that discusses the legal issues of voter ID - but does not address the data issue:

The Cost of the Vote: Poll Taxes, Voter Identification Laws, and the Price of Democracy


Atiba R. Ellis
West Virginia University - College of Law

February 17, 2010

Denver University Law Review, Vol. 86, No. 3, 2009

Abstract:
This article argues that photo identification laws represent a continuation of the use of economic forces as a way to block people of lower economic status from participation in the electorate. These laws are similar to other restrictions on the franchise, such as property requirements and poll taxes, because the rules required the voter to demonstrate the ability to meet an economic test – the ability to show a certain property value, the ability to pay a tax, or the ability to obtain a photo ID. The potential effect of such photo-voter identification laws is that the voters at the lowest end of the socioeconomic scale are effectively excluded from voting because they are the least able to afford the cost of voting exacted by the law. This article contends that this type of exclusion is antithetical to the nature of democracy and ultimately constitutes a tyranny of the majority against the minority at the lowest level of socioeconomic status. This article begins by providing an overview of American photo-identification laws and discussing the modern cost of voting to the voter. Then it will discuss the history of voter access in the United States, with a focus on Harper v. Virginia, which held that the ability to pay a poll tax had no relationship with the right to vote and, the paper contends, articulated a vision of the right to vote unencumbered by class bias. The paper will then consider the potential socioeconomic impact of photo identification laws upon voters and how those impacts are similar to historical class-based discrimination. It will examine how the courts have been indifferent to the costs levied upon on the right to vote by voter identification laws – most recently in the Supreme Court’s decision in Crawford v. Marion County – and how that indifference tracks the conflict over the socioeconomic burdens of voting raised in Harper. Finally, the paper will recommend how to reframe the standards articulated in Harper to take into account this structural socioeconomic bias inherent in, and damaging to, the right to vote.


Posted by Ricardo Moresca
a resident of Menlo Park: Belle Haven
on Oct 21, 2014 at 8:00 am

Pogo,

Sorry to disagree. Even though the majority opinion was unsigned the minority opinion was. No one sat on the sidelines- that is every justice weighed in. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, joined by Justices Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan penned a six-page dissent. So using deductive reasoning the vote was 6-3.


Posted by Ricardo Moresca
a resident of Menlo Park: Belle Haven
on Oct 21, 2014 at 8:15 am

Please refer to SCOTUSblog.com which states:

"There were no publicly recorded votes for Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., and Justices Samuel A. Alito, Jr., Stephen G. Breyer, Anthony M. Kennedy, Antonin Scalia, and Clarence Thomas. However, there was no sign that any of them had declined to take part."

Web Link

This most likely means that we have not heard the last of this. I am strongly in favor of voter ID but everyone should have one at no personal cost. By imposing the the picture ID requirement on its citizens the State of Texas should also assume the obligation of providing no cost voter ID to anyone who can prove that they are a citizen. This includes no cost State assistance to the applicant in gathering the proof of citizenship.


Posted by The watcher
a resident of Menlo Park: other
on Oct 21, 2014 at 8:36 am

Pogo,

Texas law requires one of 7 photo IDs. I only have two because I travel a lot. Less than half of people in the US have passports. My neighbor doesnt have any form of legal voting ID required by Texas - but she gets along quite well.

Your question regarding people without an ID and how the function in society is besides the point. The question is the specific photo ID required by Texas.

The GAO studied the drop in voter turnout in Tennessee and Kansas due to voter ID laws and concluded there indeed was a racially and economically based suppression. Here's a link. Web Link It's pertinent to the judge's ruling in a Texas stating that the law was intentionally discriminatory and hence unconstitutional.


Posted by Acres of Toes
a resident of Woodside: Emerald Hills
on Oct 21, 2014 at 9:43 am

"Again, how do you survive in today's society without an ID? It is an honest, serious question."

Okay, it's a "serious" question.

But irrelevant to the issue - does voter ID represent essentially a poll tax?

Why does a gun license work, but not student ID?

One side wants fewer Americans voting, the other side seeks to have more Americans fulfill the most sacred element of democrat citizenship.

also, why is the poster above plagiarizing/stealing copyrighted material, this article without attribution? Web Link Dick Morris? The guy is an admitted solicitor of prostitutes.

==========

That said, this bears scrutiny -- "North Carolina recently found 35,000 people who voted there in the 2012 election" since Dick offers no substantiation.

It's all about Kris Kobach, the Secretary of State in Kansas and a controversial, long-time Republican political operative. He compares all voting records and has come up with a list of 5 million names. And zero CONVICTIONS.

Plenty of suspicious smoke, that when investigated, finds it's all fake smokebombs -- no fire.

On Kobach's fraud database: "As election experts and professors Michael McDonald and Justin Levitt noted in a 2007 study, across the country there are surprisingly large numbers of voters with the same first and last names who share a date of birth.

In 81 pages of documents about the cross-check program obtained from the state of Pennsylvania by the American Civil Liberties Union, Kobach himself acknowledges that errors alone lead to greatly inflated numbers of possible double voters flagged in the checks: "Experience in the crosscheck program indicates that a significant number of apparent double votes are false positives and not double votes. Many are the result of errors voters sign the wrong line in the poll book, election clerks scan the wrong line with a barcode scanner, or there is confusion over the father/son voters (Sr. and Jr.)."


IMPORTANT:
==========

"When asked in October 2013, Kobach's office couldn't provide any evidence of a single instance in which the Interstate Crosscheck's data had led to an actual legal charge of voter fraud."

Not a SINGLE ONE -- so much for the North Carolina 35,000.

Voter fraud - a solution without a real problem, in order to hide ELECTION FRAUD.


Republicans want fewer Americans voting. Democrats want more Americans voting.


Posted by Bogus problem
a resident of Menlo Park: The Willows
on Oct 21, 2014 at 1:11 pm

I wouldn't rely on politically motivated axe-grinders for an accurate picture of this purported problem if I were you. Rather, let me refer you to an independent fact-check of the claim of over 35,000 putatively fraudulent double voters in NC, and its extrapolation by politicians who should (and perhaps do) know better to millions nation-wide:
Web Link

There are many factual issues that are brought up with the overvoting claims, but let me highlight one: It turns out when you also match on SS numbers as well as name and DoB, all but 765 of those 35,500 voters are distinct individuals. (And there are potentially benign explanations for the rest, at least to the point the instances should be investigated before considering them fraudulent.)

Also, what no-one making a big deal of this purported fraud has convincingly been able to articulate is what the motivation of or personal benefit to the postulated fraudster is. Even if sustained, the numbers here are clearly far too small to make a difference on the margins of most votes, and it's not always going to be apparent ahead of time which the remainder are. Yet the penalties for being found out are tangible and severe. (Particularly if the concern is that undocumented immigrants are voting when they shouldn't. It seems much more likely that such people would want to avoid any contact with officialdom, lest discovery should lead to deportation.)

A much bigger problem, as others have pointed out earlier, is disenfranchisement of those who should be voting. If one were truly concerned about making the process as democratic and accountable as possible, then one would strive for a balance between overvoting on the one hand and disenfranchisement on the other. Unfortunately, I think many of those politicians advocating stringent voter ID only look at one side of that balance and consider the disenfranchisement to be desirable, even if they won't say so, because they see political advantage in it.


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 21, 2014 at 10:12 pm

pogo is a registered user.

Ricardo - Sorry, but just because only 3 justices signed the dissenting opinion doesn't mean that only 3 justices dissented. Written opinions, affirming or dissenting, rarely include all 9 justices. You cannot assume the vote was 6-3.

Watcher stated: "Your question regarding people without an ID and how the function in society is besides the point." Actually, Watcher, that is my ONLY point. If you read my comment, I specifically noted with my very first words that I'm not commenting on the need for voter ID. I am only asking how someone exists in our society without ID.

If you have a job, then you had to have ID to get the job. If you don't have a job and receive any kind of government benefits or assistance, then you had to have ID. If you cash a check, have a bank account or fill a prescription, you had to have ID. So who doesn't fall into one of those categories? If your 90 year old neighbor receives any checks or benefits, then they have ID. How else do they cash the check or pay their bills? It's a legitimate question.

For those who continue to wonder why a college ID isn't sufficient, you must realize that a college ID proves you go to college, not citizenship. Not every student at Stanford or Cal is a US citizen.

Again, I'm not commenting on the need for voter ID. How do people without ID exist in today's world?


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 21, 2014 at 10:23 pm

pogo is a registered user.

Here's a really good example of misleading information.

Web Link

This article states that 9.2% of Pennsylvania voters do not have IDs. But if you read the article, it says that those 9.2% are people who do not have PennDOT driver's licenses or identification cards. Read just a bit further and it states: "...various other forms of photo identification will be accepted at voting places in November, including U.S. passports, student identification cards with expiration dates, current military identification, and ID cards issued to government employees."

As I said, even if you don't drive, you must have some ID to get a job, receive benefits or cash checks. I'm not saying there are none of these people, I'm saying the number of people without one of these forms of ID must be incredibly, incredibly small.


Posted by wahtever
a resident of Menlo Park: Central Menlo Park
on Oct 22, 2014 at 12:27 am

I know my Almanac moniker is an alias. Is Ricardo Moresca also an alias? Just asking because of the topic re legal ID requirements.


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 7:23 am

pogo is a registered user.

My question continues to goes unanswered.

How does someone exist in today's society without an ID? How do they get a job or receive Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security - all of which require photo IDs in their applications? How do they cash checks, pick up mail at the Post Office, pay bills or get prescriptions - all of which require photo ID?

I'm actually not surprised.


Posted by Acres of Toes
a resident of Woodside: Emerald Hills
on Oct 22, 2014 at 10:04 am

"My question continues to goes unanswered." And it will.

I haven't bothered, because you admitted it is off-topic and irrelevant to the topic ("my very first words that I'm not commenting on the need for voter ID"). Start a new thread on how to live in today's economy while 'off the grid'. I'm sure it will be both fascinating and enlightening. To someone.

You then reference PA and include this tidbit ("student identification cards with expiration dates") which doesn't apply to Texas, as Texas does not accept student ID.


Posted by Acres of Toes
a resident of Woodside: Emerald Hills
on Oct 22, 2014 at 10:25 am

A history of Texas VOTER SUPPRESSION: Web Link

1865: Voter intimidation. Beginning with emancipation, African Americans in Texas were regularly denied the right to vote, through intimidation and violence, including lynching.

1895: The first all-white primaries begin.

1902: The poll tax. The Legislature added a poll tax to Texas' constitution in 1902

1905: Texas formalizes its all-white primary system.

1918: Texas enacts an anti-immigrant voting law.

1922: Texas tries a new type of all-white primary.

1927: Texas tries a third type of all-white primary.

1932: Texas tries again.

1944: And again.

1963: Long live the poll tax!

1966: Texas implements a strict new voter registration system. After the Supreme Court invalidated Texas' poll tax...

1970: Texas draws discriminatory districts.

1971: The state attempts to keep black students from the ballot box.

1981: Texas draws discriminatory districts again.

2003: And again.

2011: And again.

2011: Texas enacts its infamous voter ID law.

2014: Pogo wants to talk about something else.


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 11:15 am

pogo is a registered user.

If you cannot answer the question - even about your 90 year neighbor who you seem to know so well - perhaps that is because people really cannot exist in our society without ID and this problem isn't nearly as widespread as people represent.

I'll accept that!


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 11:20 am

pogo is a registered user.

For what it's worth, MOST states require voter ID.

Here is a state-by-state listing of their laws: Web Link


Posted by Acres of Toes
a resident of Woodside: Emerald Hills
on Oct 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm

Pogo: I have not referenced my "...90 year neighbor who you seem to know so well".

Also, you link claims for our state "All voters are required to provide a driver's license number or state identification number"

I don't think I've ever presented an ID at a voting booth (granted, I usually vote by mail.) The CA SOS office claims "In most cases, California voters are not required to show identification at their polling place."

So, other than facts, your link is brilliant.

But, by all means, keep diverting the conversation away from the thread topic with irrelevant discussion about 90 yr olds living in today's world without ID ("my very first words that I'm not commenting on the need for voter ID").

Pogo: are you defending the belief widely held by conservatives that there is a significant amount of voter fraud?


Posted by whatever
a resident of Menlo Park: Central Menlo Park
on Oct 22, 2014 at 1:25 pm

Pogo
Folks who can exist w/o gov't photo.
Homeless
Transient
Citizen farm labor
Anyone who gets paid under the table
Folks who barter
Elderly folks living in poverty and anyone who does not go after gov't aid
Young folks still living at home of voting age but non-drivers
Behaviorally disabled folks who receive no gov't aid
Physically disabled who rarely leave home and receive no gov't aid
Home business people who don't declare taxes
etc
etc
etc




Posted by need poll taxes
a resident of Atherton: Lindenwood
on Oct 22, 2014 at 1:59 pm

[post removed.]


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 2:34 pm

pogo is a registered user.

Thank you for making my point so well. Seriously.

The main people you cite who MAY not have IDs (and certainly many if not most do) - the homeless, underground economy, people who don't declare taxes (which is illegal) - to the extent they receive benefits like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security or have to pay an electric bill or get a prescription (which I think the vast majority do) then they have the required IDs. Am I supposed to believe that people who take such incredible steps to avoid society just can't wait to perform their civic duty to vote and are complaining that they are being turned away at the polls? Right...

And, unlike you who won't answer my questions without asking several times, I will answer your question directly. Although the two are unrelated, I think the percentage of voter fraud is approximately the same as the percentage of people who do not have IDs.


Posted by Acres of Toes
a resident of Woodside: Emerald Hills
on Oct 22, 2014 at 2:56 pm

" I think the percentage of voter fraud is approximately the same as the percentage of people who do not have IDs"

Upon what evidence do you base that assertion?

Documented cases of voter fraud in the last decade = dozens? (and that includes Ann Coulter illegally using the wrong address while voting in Florida Web Link )

Number of potentially disenfranchised American voters in 3 states, by the numbers given by Perter Carpenter above: "Indiana, Maryland, and Mississippi, which aimed to explore the extent to which ID requirements pose a problem (if any) to registered voters. The survey found that only 1.2% of registered voters in all three states lack a photo ID"

Indiana 6,570,902
Maryland 5,928,814
Mississippi 2,984,926
Total population = aprox 13 million

1.2% = about 1.5 million voters in 3 states potentially disenfranchised

Pogo's fraud cases = dozens? maybe?

Let's do the math...

1.5 million from 3 states >>> possibly dozens of fraud cases nationally

Pogo - "Although the two are unrelated, I think the percentage of voter fraud is approximately the same as the percentage of people who do not have IDs."

Get out of our Woodside enclave and into the real world that most Americans live in.

"Thank you for making my point so well. Seriously."


Posted by The watcher
a resident of Menlo Park: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm

@Pogo

You question regarding requiring ID to live is not pertinent to the topic of the article "Texas Photo ID Ruling Prevents Voter Fraud".

Regarding how difficult it is to live without ID -- I've been asked for ID about 12 times in the last year. 8 of those times were in airports. One time was for my flu shot at PAMF more to get the spelling of my name -- one time I was spuriously carded buying a bottle of wine in Point Reyes Station (I'm 60 years old - with gray hair and was more entertained than flattered.) 2 times were to buy Sudafeds to verify I wasn't starting a meth lab.

My employer never asked me for government issued photo ID. My credit card company never asked me for photo ID.

I have deposited checks at the bank (and pulled out money at the same time - making it effectively "cashing a check")
and I wasn't asked for photo ID.

I have filed a trust in San Mateo County and was never asked for photo ID.

My mother buys her prescriptions over the internet - no photo ID required.

---------------
Short of buying Sudafeds (actually generic) and airports - it really doesn't seem like that many people are interested in my photo ID.

Maybe you are overrating how important this is. Maybe people your so handsome the staff in places want to see your photo ID to scope out your address.

Regarding states that require photo ID - I think you are way off base there. I've lived in four other states and never had to present photo ID to vote.

I'm sure this hasn't answered your question but I need to see your photo ID to respond anymore.

Cheers,


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 4:20 pm

pogo is a registered user.

[Post removed. Comments on a post that was removed.]


Posted by pogo
a resident of Woodside: other
on Oct 22, 2014 at 4:36 pm

pogo is a registered user.

For someone who thinks my point is irrelevant, you certainly have a lot of questions and comments. I appreciate that.

1. Fact: You can't open a bank account without an ID. It's a federal law.

2. Fact: You can't cash a check without a photo ID. If you do so at the bank where you already have an account or ATM, see #1 above.

3. Fact: You can't be hired today without an ID AND proof that you are eligible to work. See IRS Form I-9. It's REQUIRED.

4. Fact: Your aunt may not remember but she had to show an ID at the drug store the FIRST time she filled it. Once they know you, that is usually, but not necessarily required.

5. Fact: You cannot apply for Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security without an ID.

6. Fact: If you want to complain about this to your member of Congress, you will have to show an ID to get in.

There are more, of course, but you get the idea.

With regard to questioning my answer about the incidence/prevalence of voter fraud, perhaps you missed the important words "I think" contained in my answer. But if that percentage is the 1.2% you claim, I can live with that.

My point - in case you missed it the first dozen times - is that it is nearly impossible to exist in today's society without an ID. For that reason, I don't think the ID requirement is the horrific imposition that will result in changes to election results. Kinda like voter fraud.

Your demand for my photo ID before you respond again is most welcome news. Let's test your integrity.


Posted by Acres of Toes
a resident of Woodside: Emerald Hills
on Oct 22, 2014 at 4:39 pm

[Comment on a post that was removed.]

Or want to just get back to the irrelevancy of how some live without ID?

"Thank you for making my point so well. Seriously."