How much we owe to those who serve us

For a probing look at contemporary heroes and who is or is not especially worthy of this particular honorific, check this out.

Web Link

"Soldiers and cops and firefighters, he argues, embody a notion of public service to which the rest of us are now no more than spectators. What we really need, in other words, is a swift kick in the pants. "

How true.

There are plenty of heroes who work in non-macho, non-male dominated fields. I am tired of the whole "hero hero hero" mentality within and directed towards these people who CHOOSE their careers. I am especially tired of hearing about the soldiers who fight for our alleged freedom. How about this - if they choose these jobs, they do their jobs, period. No being a hero, no adulation and lessen the accolades. Of course, this won't happen - heroes need their myths more than we need them.

[Avoid attacks on posters.] They may CHOOSE the career...but it is a special type of person who CHOOSES to take on a career of service whether that be military, law enforcement, fire service or medical. {Portion deleted.]

Having been in the military for six years during the Vietnam era and having met various "types" who "served," I'm sympathetic with Yawn.

Heroes were rare and the idea of doing what we were doing for our country was not a joke exactly, but there was plenty of cynicism to go around.

There were moments. Exchanging salutes with another US vessel at sea got my blood going, as did spending time underwater on a submarine and arriving at a port of call.

But we were cannon fodder, so to speak. I never felt that I was serving anything. I was looking for a way to avoid dying in Vietnam without having to dodge the draft, as were many, many of my cohorts.

I look at today's military as something less than what we were, having made a choice oneself rather than having it made for you. My heart is not with them as it was with the guys in Vietnam. And our freedom can be well and truly defended in many more productive ways than going to war.

I have thought and thought about being "grateful" to the military and simply cannot come up with a rationale that holds water in this day and age.

There have been wars in which our freedom was at stake, but they are very few and very far between. Bin Laden, as has been shown, should have been captured in a police action. We didn't need to invade Afghanistan.

[Post removed. Personal attacks not welcome here.]

I recommend that posters actually watch the video posted at the beginning of this thread before they embarrass themselves by making truly stupid statements.

Hey if these guys really are heroes Carpenter then who are you to say they shouldn't get high salaries and pensions. That's the inconsistency in your post. You can't have it both ways.

There is no inconsistency in recognizing the quality and bravery of the service that those who responded to the 9-11 tragedy and also ensuring that our public servants are fairly and properly compensated.

As noted in other posts there are many who serve in even more hazardous roles for a fraction of what Bay area public servants are paid. For example, there has never been a Medal of Honor recipient who was paid as much as the average Bay area firefighter.

Now go watch the video and be very thankful for those brave individuals who went to NYC after 9-11 and represented all of us who stood and watched from a distance.

We owe them quite a bit.

Harold and his crew went to recover the dead -- an important mission, to be sure. It's tragic they are suffering from health problems. We, as a society, owe them a debt of gratitude. We also owe them health care as they live their now compromised lives. That means medical benefits, expensive though they may be.

Yes, firefighters here make more than they do in Poh-Dunk, Kansas. News Flash: It costs more to live in the Bay Area.

In fact, at the current "high" compensation levels, what percentage of Menlo Fire employees can afford to live close (on this side of the bridge)? This raises the more interesting predicament of how are our "heros in waiting" going to get here when the big one hits?

Perhaps we aren't paying them enough. We will need the off duty firefighters to come to work. If Peter gets his way, they will be driving from their trailer parks in Stockton or beyond.

Cops and firemen/women are extraordinarily well-compensated, all elements considered.

Althoughl I'd go along with paying our soldiers a bonus for being forced to work for the current CIC...;-(

>>there has never been a Medal of Honor recipient who was paid as >>much as the average Bay area firefighter

Does the Silver Star count ?

Tillman's group was the lead group in a ground assault convey traversing cavernous terrain. The terrain left no room for the group to maneuver making it what the army describes as a "kill zone." Tillman's group had moved safely out of the area when the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire.

Tillman's heroic action coming to the aid of the trailing group would earn him a Silver Star.

Tilman's Army pay was 1/3 of what our local firefighters are paid.

Tommy - this is your last season, right? You're one of my fave characters and while you may have some heroic qualities - look at the mess you've turned your life into. Now, that's NOT heroism.

I find this thread ironic given the *real* local hero whose story - and passing - is available now - Coach Ben Parks.

For those who don't like my opinion, too bad - but I didn't attack you, although you attacked me. How heroic are you? I've saved several lives while just going about my life, and I'm not a cop, military person or fireman. That patriarchal, mythological paradigm doesn't address the breadth and depth of heroism, but only highlights its own culture. Over and over again, in books, movies, TV and real life, we celebrate that mentality. I posit that heroism is well beyond that. It's the teachers, who during the Columbine shootings, saved lives. It's regular people who save lives, nurses and doctors, babysitters and scientists, pedestrians and childcare workers, people like my aunt, a church volunteer who risks her life to help sex slaves. It's ministers and human aid workers, dog walkers and even lawyers.

It's the cult of heroism that I distrust and find fault with, not the heroic acts themselves.

Peter, I did watch the video. I know that for many, what you posted represents heroism; I simply disagree. Thanks for your respect toward my opinion - you're a classy gent.

Grandpa Hutch was a Bataan death march and prisoner of war camp survivor. My brother, Lt. Col. Mike Mueller served in Afghanistan. He has a plate in his neck from when he broke it in the service, but he still serves. He left four children under 7, and beautiful wife here in the states. My nephew also served in Iraq. He left two children here, and almost lost his foot to infection. Every day they were gone we prayed they would return home, alive. Yawn, whether you appreciate it or not, our service men and women very much choose to put their life in harms way to protect you. And whether you honor their sacrifice or not, or loyalty to authority, they don't follow their orders for your praises. They believe in their duty.

I am disgusted by the apathy shown in this thread to our service men and women. But I am not surprised by it.

Did you know that in 2010, 18-24 year old who served in the military had a higher unemployment rate, over 21%, than those who did not, 16.6%.

Did you know that 18 veterans commit suicide everyday?

Did you know the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal recently ruled that veterans civil rights are being violated due to the lack of resources being made available to care for them?

It is a travesty how our veterans are being treated today, and for those who want to devalue the service of our veterans, pause for a moment and think why you are afforded the opportunity to do so in the first place. Our veterans our suffering. Comments like Yawn's are just insults to their injuries.

Peter, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

The terrible truth about 9/11 is that there are very tough days ahead for those who responded, as the exposure latency period pass, and the lung cancer and mesothelioma incidence rates rise. These responders are heros.

Raymond,
No problem - this thread was hijacked early on into a diversion on heroes - a very subjective issue. Unfortunately many posters use this forum and its offer of anonymity to simply attack and tear down others rather than to be constructive.

I merely wanted to highlight the efforts of a very small group of Bay Area first responders who represented us in the Nation's response to 9-11 and did so without question, with great skill and with little remembrance.

I would welcome a thread on what we owe our serving and returning military - I have been through that in that nastiest of times and still suffer the anguish of how we returning Vietnam vets were treated.

I guess I need to respond. We did not need to invade Afghanistan to solve the problem of Al Queda. We certainly did not need to invade Iraq, and we invaded Vietnam on a trumped up fiction engineered by a president who wanted to flex his muscles.

Does that bring to mind a recent president? How about one who chooses to lead from behind, and the recent success of that endeavor?

This knee jerk adoration of troops who are in the military through their own choice doesn't wash with me. Why did they join? Because they like violence? Or adrenaline rushes? Or firing guns at other people? Or the peak experiences of close combat and a band of brothers? Or because they insist on wearing blinders such that they really do think there is a threat out there to this country that can't be dealt with in other ways? By which I mean soft diplomacy and other actions that don't require invasion.

Fine, but don't expect anything from me. If I could divert my tax dollars away from the "defense" department, I would.

For whatever reason they choose to wear a U.S. uniform, soldiers and sailors are not automatically entitled to honor and praise. Heroes are rare, and heroes that actually do accomplish something tangible for the country as a whole are probably rarer still.

I was a sailor. It's an important experience and more people should have it through a draft that leaves out no one. Being in the service helped my sense of patriotism, which is more than I can say for the business executives who've been shipping jobs overseas for the last couple of decades, and the U.S. presidents who have enabled them. If you want to honor someone, honor people who are doing something tangible for economic health and well being of this country. Military adventurism is so 19th century.

Joe - you are off topic.

Peter - I don't care.;

Joe states "I don't care.;"

How true.

Joe,

Your comments about the motivation of people who join the military today are so insulting. Maybe you should spend some significant time volunteering at the VA, and get to know some of today's veterans before you cast dispersions and insults so readily.

This is a very well done film showing truly heroic locals whose mentality, in this case, is extraordinary and articulate and the film is done with taste and probably should be entered in film festivals for more to see.
I just wonder, why, besides the anniversary of 9/11, Mr. Carpenter chose to remind us about this group which has been honored with dozens of equally painful memories and the same kind of afflictions.
Mr. Carpenter is an example of a man who has his hand on the pulse of almost anything written here, or said here and I would like to know if his intentions to honor the others who died and served who came from this area, are going to be addressed by him wihtout such a touching and professional award type film. I have often asked what we can do for the men and women who CAN be helped with housing, with medical assistance, with money, and with even a mention.We ARE the richest County in the U.S. and I think your honoring this firefighter more of a reminder of the date and a chance to show your pride that leaves us wondering how we can help people locally who pay our taxes and had jobs and no longer can work or do much.
The responses from JOE were beautifully written, deeply honest and sincere without demeaning anyone, and it is to HIM I want to thank his patriotism, his serving, and the fact that he sees truth in a way which is what is closer to the meaning of your tribute.

GLORY,

What Joe had to say about the motivations of our current volunteer military didn't seem very truthful to me at all.

It appeared to me to be judgmental ramblings about people he doesn't know, based on a political philosophy that is anti-war and anti-soldier. I don't have a problem with people being anti-war, but I think it is pretty awful to say our soldiers, who enlist to defend us, either like violence, adrenaline rushes, firing guns at other people, the peak experiences of close combat and a band of brothers, or insist on wearing blinders such that they really do think there is a threat out there to this country that can't be dealt with in other ways? That certainly appears to be an insult. I mean, isn't that basically saying our soldiers today either have sociopathic tendencies, are adrenaline junkies, or are ignorant? What isn't demeaning about that statement?

I appreciate that both Joe and Peter served for the US, and US, and believe they should be praised for it. But I think it is ironic you would praise Joe for his service, and treat him like he is a hero, while also condoning his message that others shouldn't be so praised. It's a bit of a mixed message.

Joe:

I suggest you try to peddle your BS aabout people's motivation for joining the military to my son. He's an Ensign in the Navy. He joined to serve his country. Not to kill people. Not to shoot guns at people. Not for the rush of combat. Simply to serve his country. He may have to do all of those things at some point, but he didn't join so he could. My experience with the other members of my son's ROTC class was the same.

I was a police officer for 10 years. I didn't do it for glory or to shoot at people or any of the other stupid reasons you probably think people go into police work. I did it to serve my community. Yes, I had to fight people and I had to arrest people, and I saw a lot of terrible things that the average person doesn't even want to think about, but that's not why I went into law enforcement.

So, as I said, go peddle your BS about the motivation of those that serve on, YOUR BEHALF, somewhere else. Those of that served aren't buying.

GLORY asks -"I just wonder, why, besides the anniversary of 9/11, Mr. Carpenter chose to remind us about this group "

IF you watched the video that began this thread you will have noted that it was produced on 19 August 2011 - which I was I posted this topic on 22 Aug 2011.

IF you watched this video you would have noted that it dealt with the long term after effects on those who responded to the 9-11 tragedy in NYC - something that, by definition, could not have been addressed at in 2001.

Although Peter has tried to say that "There is no inconsistency in recognizing the quality and bravery of the service that those who responded to the 9-11 tragedy and also ensuring that our public servants are fairly and properly compensated," the title of his post is "HOW MUCH we owe to those who serve us."

I say we owe a lot. It's short sighted to be looking at costs for police officers or firefighters at the expense of our safety. In particular, in Atherton, we have been understaffing and underfunding the police department for the past several years, and this can create liability for the town.

If Peter gets the wrong answer to his own question, HOW MUCH do we owe to those who serve us, as he consistently does, we are going to be having problems we don't want or need.

Simply monetizing our appreciation for the efforts of others as the only means of recognition fails to recognize all of the many other the ways that we can and should acknowledge those amongst us who play a special role, take greater risks or perform extraordinarily well.

You are truly a Saint, Mr. Carpenter.

I can’t quantify how much we owe those who protect us but I am proud to give to two most worthy charities. The first one is the Wounded Warriors Project. You can make donations by clicking on this link:
Web Link

The second one is the Navy Seals Foundation. You can also make donations by clicking on this link:

Web Link

If you wish to give to the families of our fallen heroes who sacrificed their lives in Afghanistan you can designate in the program area: “To support the families of the fallen Navy SEALS – Afghanistan 8/5/11”.

I am very grateful that my employer matches my donations dollar for dollar. So rather than just talking about it I encourage Almanac readers to show their gratitude by making donations to these two most worthy charities.

Thanks Hank.

Another great organization to contribute to is the American Combat Veterans of War. I have met with their leadership, and this is a relatively flat organization of volunteers, doing hands on work with veterans and their families returning home from war, with locations directly next to VA hospitals near the marine base at Camp Pendleton, and the Naval Base in San Diego.

Web Link

Also, if people don't want to give money, but are so inclined, the ACVOW are putting together a reading room for veterans at their Oceanside location near Camp Pendleton. You can send books to that address, found on the website link above.